Comments on Christians in Context: from orthodoxy to orthopraxy.: Emergent Reading Continues: What Would Jesus Decon...

Just so you know too, I have the next installment ...

2008-03-14T15:08:24.550-04:00

Just so you know too, I have the next installment in this series of posts coming out tonight or tomorrow morning.

Thanks for the link! Ironically, for me, I was giv...

2008-03-14T15:07:00.122-04:00

Thanks for the link! Ironically, for me, I was given a copy of that book by a family member in North Carolina last week who did not know I had read it already or that I am reviewing Caputo's book. I thought the timing was incredible.

I found "In His Steps" at Gutenburg Project, if an...

2008-03-14T14:54:11.711-04:00

I found "In His Steps" at Gutenburg Project, if anyone may be interested in reading or re-reading it for this discussion or any other reason. It's here.

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/4540

Thanks for your comments jazzact13!In terms of how...

2008-03-12T11:47:15.886-04:00

Thanks for your comments jazzact13!

In terms of how Caputo describes (or deconstructs) Sheldon's book "In His Steps", you're right, there is not a specific renunciation of the profit-making motives that drive captialism, but that fact does not actually take away from Caputo's point. Before I explain why I should say, in fairness to both you and him, that its hard to make assessments when all you have before you is a couple excerpts that I chose to quote. On this point in particular, Caputo actually gives some additional background on Sheldon's life; he explains that for Sheldon, alcohol, for example, was one of the primary problems in the same sense that drugs are today. Thus, with the man who owned the newspaper for example, to give up certain advertising like alcohol ads, was not only a moral choice, but was also a social statement at a time when many Christians thought prohibition was the best answer to the problem. In effect, the character was doing more that a simple renunciation of sin; he was also acting as a Christian social activist. Ultimately, it is hard to simply dismiss Caputo's assessment largely because of the fact that he does place the story in the context of Sheldon's life. I have read the book (In His Steps) myself, and perhaps there is a better explanation of Sheldon's text, but I have yet to hear one up to this point.

I also think its a pointless and presumptuous caracature to suggest that Captuo does not care about certain vices that are pointed out in Sheldon's book, such as alcohol and boxing. Not only does the book not deal with this, but to say it is simply condescending rhetoric. Let's stay on topic and offer critique thats based on substance- we have enough polarization in the church. I'm not defending Caputo here; I'm defending vigorous debate thats based on substantive argumentation.

As far as your point about overstating similarities, perhaps thats true. In fact, it almost certainly is, but my point is that there are point of contact. We go so far out of our way to highlight the differences (I've done it myself), but we simply will not see similarities. In addition, most of our critique is offered without even reading the literature from the other side. What I am trying to do is look for points of congruency, while also chalenging people to offer critique thats based on substance- informed argumentation. I am trying to raise the bar by challenging people to read what is being written- perhaps if we read the arguments carefully, the arguments of those who object would be strenthened and they would be taken more seriously. The one thing I constantly see is people talking past one another. For myself personally, I have some serious reservations about some of what Caputo has said in his book (look for my next post in the next day or so), but that does not mean I do not think he has made any good points about his view or the Christian right (which I am a part of). I want to reach the point where I understand the issues so well that when I offer an objection I have to be taken seriously because I understand the central issues. My point is that if we, on the conservative right, believe that the emergent church is such a threat, then we will learn all we can, if for no other reason than to thwart its progress. So here is the challenge again: inform yourself by reading and learning all that you can.

respectfully-Norman Jeune III

It has been several years since I last read the bo...

2008-03-12T10:07:40.265-04:00

It has been several years since I last read the book "In His Steps", so my memory of it may not be as sharp as I wish. I think, though, that what I do remember is different then how Caputo seems to be deconstructing it (and I do use the dreaded 'd' word because, well, that's what he does).

For example, I don't recall that the heroes of the novel "renounce the profit-making motives that drive capitalism". I do remember that, for example, the man who owned the newspaper quit using certain dishonest reporting practices and stopped advertising certain things in his paper (and if I remember right, some of the things he stopped advertising were boxing matches and alcoholic beverages, which I doubt Mr. Caputo would think to be such major vices). In other words, that character renounced real sins--greed, lying--not fake sins like making profit in a business. In renouncing the real sins, he may have had to accept that his profits would be cut, but that was more a byproduct then an aim.
Noting the similar disdain both Caputo and Piper have for the prosperity gospel is fine, but don't take it too far, either. There is quote from Chesterton that I thought about in this regard, from his book What's Wrong with the World, ch. 1.
This is the arresting and dominant fact about modern
social discussion; that the quarrel is not merely about
the difficulties, but about the aim. We agree about the evil;
it is about the good that we should tear each other's eyes cut.
We all admit that a lazy aristocracy is a bad thing.
We should not by any means all admit that an active aristocracy would
be a good thing. We all feel angry with an irreligious priesthood;
but some of us would go mad with disgust at a really religious one.
Everyone is indignant if our army is weak, including the people
who would be even more indignant if it were strong.
The social case is exactly the opposite of the medical case.
We do not disagree, like doctors, about the precise nature
of the illness, while agreeing about the nature of health.
On the contrary, we all agree that England is unhealthy, but half
of us would not look at her in what the other half would call blooming
health . Public abuses are so prominent and pestilent that they
sweep all generous people into a sort of fictitious unanimity.
We forget that, while we agree about the abuses of things,
we should differ very much about the uses of them.
Mr. Cadbury and I would agree about the bad public house.
It would be precisely in front of the good public-house that our
painful personal fracas would occur.

You may be able to find a some evils that Caputo and Piper agree are evil, but it would be exactly in regards to responses and ways of setting those evils right that the true differences between those two would come out, and it would not be surprising if both consider the other's cures to be as bad if not worse then the currect dis-ease.

Does the book deal with deconstruction specificall...

2008-03-08T14:46:04.766-05:00

Does the book deal with deconstruction specifically? I ask because I am not actually seeking a primer on postmodernism itself; I have a bit of exposure to philosophy. In fact, I was in the phiosophy program at Talbot for a while. Not that I am an expert, but my concern is to learn more specifically about deconstruction itself. I understand the general postmodern issues. Let me know in more detail and perhaps I will take a look. Thanks!

have you read or considered reading who's afraid o...

2008-03-07T22:34:32.474-05:00

have you read or considered reading who's afraid of postmodernism by james smith? i recommend this one before jumping into what would jesus deconstruct?

Norm,I'm so glad that you and your family have got...

2008-03-07T13:37:59.987-05:00

Norm,

I'm so glad that you and your family have gotten away. We love you so much. Norm...how is your heart?

Sue