Comments on Christians in Context: from orthodoxy to orthopraxy.: The Fidelity of Betrayal: Towards a Church Beyond ...

HiI can understand why the distinction I made betw...

2008-05-07T04:48:00.000-04:00

Hi

I can understand why the distinction I made between two types of eschatology is confusing. In the post I labeled, for shorthand, one as historical and the other as theological/phenomenological. However, as you noted, the way I said this made it seem that only the latter was theological. Instead of saying theological/phenomenological I should have said phenomenological theology. There are different ways I could name these two approaches, for instance I would say that the first includes a mix of historical research (want did the people of Jesus’ day think of the end of history), biblical exegesis (what did the biblical writers think of this end) and metaphysical theology (what does God think). While the latter could be said to be phenomenological eschatology in so much as it employs the term as a way of describing an experience of the kingdom that believers have. In this way phenomenological eschatology is about ones experience of the kingdom as still to come.

Note that this is not a lack of experience of that which is still to arrive, but rather a positive experience of a lack that is felt. In the book I use the analogy of ones beloved – his or her presence opens up and testifies to an absence. Like the Tardis in Doctor Who the fragile physical frame of my beloved belies an interior world of infinite proportions that I have yet to explore. Each person is thus a rupture in the world of mute being similar to those cartoon holes that make space appear on the side of a cliff.

In terms of your second question I will just make a quick comment that the term post-modern is too popular now to be rigorous. In philosophy it is rarely used because it is so wide a term (referring to everything from an architectural style to a type of youth culture) and instead people talk about different types of phenomenology and post-structuralism. These are more technical terms that communicate a more specific theoretical positioning. While I have a number of influences, if someone wanted to name my approach it could be broadly seen as phenomenological (though in a specific way). Phenomenology, briefly, is the study of that which appears to us in the mode that it appears. Ironically I am interested in the religious category of felt non-appearance so my phenomenology is not strictly phenomenological!

Hope that clarifies rather than muddies the water.

Peter

Thanks for your comments and feedback Peter!There ...

2008-05-06T14:24:00.000-04:00

Thanks for your comments and feedback Peter!

There are just couple, very brief things I might say as a follow-up. First, many of your distinctions are obviously finely nuanced, and I think I need to keep reading and think more about what you have said here.

One comment I might add is simply to say that I do not understand the distinction you make when you separate uses of 'eschatological' in terms of history, on the one hand, and theology and phenomonology on the other. I don't know that you are suggesting this, but it seems that the distinction implies a divorce between history and theology. Perhaps you might be able to explain that a bit further.

I was also wondering if you might explain your description of postmodern thought as phenomenology.

I really appreciated the comment from Rollins cited below,

"The less we know about the theories which guide us the more we are enslaved by them and the more we impose them. When one understands ones theoretical positioning one can be more self-consciously careful about how one employs it and thus be less likely to just see it as ‘the way things are’."

I think this is a key point for theological discussion. I think this idea explains why many of us are not able to get to the point of dialogue, but simply talk past each other. Unfortunately, our lack of self-awareness often leads to name-calling and rhetoric.

Finally, in some sense, I think the next chapter in Dr. Rollins' book anticiaptes some of my questions. I have not finished chapter 4 yet, but he does offer some interesting analysis regarding the academy in the Western world in terms of how we approach and give priority to certain questions regarding truth.

It will be interesting to see where the discussion takes us.

Thank you for another very careful reading of my w...

2008-05-06T04:45:00.000-04:00

Thank you for another very careful reading of my work. As Matthew mentioned I am indeed flattered. I think I will limit my comments to one area of your analysis, namely that of eschatology. In relation to this Matthew in his comment mentioned three possibilities in relation to our differing approach to eschatology,

1) you're wrong and he's right, 2) he's right about the concept being Scriptural, but these particular passages don't establish it, or 3) it'll become apparent that Rollins' "biblical parallax" concept is taken from somewhere else (postmodern philosophy?) and imposed upon the text.

However I think that there is another. Before mentioning it I will make a quick comment on number 3. I would say that I have been influenced by postmodern thought (or what I would prefer to call phenomenology) although I try not to impose that on the text, but rather bring it into dialogue with the text (for my theoretical position is not a closed whole that I bring to life but an ever expanding and changing network of ideas which are developed as I engage in life). The less we know about the theories which guide us the more we are enslaved by them and the more we impose them. When one understands ones theoretical positioning one can be more self-consciously careful about how one employs it and thus be less likely to just see it as ‘the way things are’. Interestingly I came to phenomenology late academically speaking (doing my primary degree in a department that had mixed feelings about it) and long after I had immersed myself in the bible. I advocate the idea of a fusion of horizons in which I encounter the living, dynamic text (which I, like Matthew, affirm) as I am – here in the intersubjective relationship meaning is located.

Anyway this is merely a side-point. To return to the main point I would say that my use of the term ‘eschatological’ is not in opposition to certain positions within the historical-critical debate you mention (say between realised eschatology and inaugurated eschatology) but rather seeks to penetrate deeper than the historical-critical debates. Hence I would broadly agree with your overview of eschatology as understood at the time of Jesus. However I want to put the term to different/deeper work. Perhaps I could speak of eschatology (historical) and Eschatology (theological/phenomenological). My claim is that the term ‘Eschatology’ can be employed/expanded in order to help us appreciate a phenomenological unity between John and Jesus (not a disparity) as well as tie together certain readings of the kingdom as both here now and to come. By employing a visual metaphor we could say, T-H-E-K-I-N-G-D-O-M-I-S-N-O-W-H-E-R-E (i.e. both ‘now here’ and ‘nowhere’ at one and the same time). By putting the term Eschatology to work in this way I am attempting to show that it can open up a deep understanding of the kingdom which does not require unity in terms of the Christian communities understanding of Jesus’, John’s or the author of revelation’s understanding of the temporal culmination of history.

My claim is that if eschatology is the study of the ‘to come’ in theology then it must deepen its appreciation of the ‘to come’, not merely in terms of temporal culmination, but in terms of its structural depth. Hence we can talk not only about the kingdom that is to come, but also of the kingdom that is the ‘to come’.

Thanks

Peter

Of course, we can't know God exhaustively or infal...

2008-05-05T01:50:00.000-04:00

Of course, we can't know God exhaustively or infallibly, but that doesn't mean that we can't have true knowledge of him.

Good post. I'm sure that Rollins will continue to ...

2008-05-05T01:49:00.000-04:00

Good post. I'm sure that Rollins will continue to be flattered and impressed by the amount of effort you're putting into understanding his work.

It doesn't seem wide of the mark at all to take time to consider the biblical topic of eschatology, since the supposedly different eschatologies of John and Jesus are precisely the proof for Rollin's notion of "biblical parallax." If you challenge his reading of the Scriptures on this point, only a few possibilities remain: 1) you're wrong and he's right, 2) he's right about the concept being Scriptural, but these particular passages don't establish it, or 3) it'll become apparent that Rollins' "biblical parallax" concept is taken from somewhere else (postmodern philosophy?) and imposed upon the text.

If we could, however, get beyond the particular issue of eschatology and talk about Rollins' general principle, I'd like to know where he takes this. From what you've quoted, it seems that he is trying to (dis)establish the notion of a definitive reading of the text and say that, instead, we've got readings that are all over the map. The reason for this is: 1) our position has changed, and 2)the subject matter of the Bible (God) can not be contained within the text.

I believe the second point can be countered in some sense, although Rollins is onto something.

The first point, however, I take some issue with. I might not even be on the right track, but it seems like Rollins presupposes some fundamental differences between this age that we are living in now and the ages that have read the text in times past. He'd probably also want to say that the different contexts and perspectives even within our own age lead to different readings, thereby establishing the idea that we have no definitive reading, we have no hope of coming to 'a reading.' The end result is that we really can't say much about God, other than that he's mysterious and un-containable. Judging by Rollins' little asides, we can't even say that God 'exists.' Presumably, God is beyond existence (a la Tillich? Heidegger?).

Well, I'm not so sure that the position of the reader is so different from the reader in other ages or places. That is, it is theologically impossible to establish that our situation or position has changed; we are still in the 'age of grace.'

Further, Rollins seems to treat the text as a passive object which is acted upon by the reader. While that may be fine from a postmodern philosophical perspective, it simply won't work from a Christian perspective; the text is active, since it the mediator of God's presence and will.

To me, the question remains very, very simple: can we have personal and propositional knowledge about God? The Christian answer is a resounding 'yes!'

"This is eternal life that they may know you, the one true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." John 17:3